HACKED BY CYBER-ATTACK - ALPERENBTN

[FireLine]

I respect everyone's insight on the sea grass topic but I have an observation.

I have fished the flats since i was a kid. And one thing that I can recall is ( and I think is very important, maybe not ) is that pot hole's appear and disappear year after year. I remember that one year an area is covered with grass, and the next covered with pot holes. Which can only mean one thing, sea grass grows when it wants to and were it wants to and has nothing to do with boats. I can also recall all the motor dug outs in the flats as well. Since I was 12 I have never observed the flast increasingly being destroy by boat motors. My guess is that this is an attempt to increase the revenue at TPW and has nothing to do with conservation. This is no different than NEW TAXES, more money. Where is the year by year satilite photos that show the sea grass in Aransas bays becoming less and less? One of the reason I fell in love with fishing is because there were no fence lines in the water. The entire bay, and gulf belonged to me and it only cost me a license. 14 years later, and the fence lines are going up.

The TPW have done a lot of good, conserving the fish, catching the bad buys, spending our money on good causes. Just hope fishing will not become a hassel.

Good luck to anyone fishing this coming week.
_________________
FIRELINE WILL " GET ER DONE!!"

[FireLine]

no responders huh,

I'm guessing maybe all surf fishermen are on this message board, or the topic is exhausted, or I was dead wrong. It was just my observation about the sea grass issue.
Any hard core flats fishermen on this board?
_________________
FIRELINE WILL " GET ER DONE!!"

[reef-rat]

Fireline, I don't know if boats are affecting the grass. I have been fishing a shallow area in Nueces bay for a couple of years. The grass seems to be just as thick now as before. I know that people drive through the area in boats and if that destroyed the grass for any length of time, I believe I would see trails through the grass. I would like to see scientific evidence that boat traffic is a menace to the grass before establishing boundries and limits. My limited experience is that, your opinion on the reason for additional rules and regulations appears to be correct.
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When it's all said and done,
more was said than done.

[Bluffer]

Good points fire-line...Im with you on that one.....
Still believe in boater eduacation, Any tore up unessesarilly is not needed though.
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Fish hard, fish the Bluff. Surrounded by water!
-A quaint little drinking village with a fishing problem-

[Johnny French]

The common elements in the early posts in this thread seem to be a lack of science to support the position of those opposed to protecting the resource, and ironic complaints that those trying to remedy the situation are the ones without the scientific evidence of harm. The observation that potholes seem to form and go away, whether in a seagrass meadow or in the street in front of your house, has nothing to do with the basic fact that they're harmful and should be prevented where possible.

Please explain why anyone should tolerate the destruction of seagrass, whether it occurs out of ignorance or contempt for authority, much less point the finger at those concerned about stopping it? Seagrass destruction is simply vandalism, with no redeeming social value at all, so get with the program.

[rutro]

I've been comeing to the salty water for ever since I can remember. But only in the last 10yrs or so have I become aware of the ecology of the area. Back when this sea grass became an issue I remember a discussion with one of the owners of a "large" tackle store here in Port A. We had just started fishing the flats and were trying to learn the life cycle of the reds and suprise, suprise, the biologists were too. They had in fact just discovered that the juvinile reds after their trip from the surf zone where they are spawned to the flats, where they grow up, were useing the prop scars as their highways. Thats where they were hanging out. Now, where they hung out before there were prop scars is what I wonder about. So much to learn, so little time!!! Entirely too much un-necessary info to wade through.

[Salt Water]

Mr. French, I respect your knowledge, and agree with you frequently.
I agree with Fireline completely on his opinion of the grass beds moving slightly from year to year. Drum, Redfish, and Pelicans rip up large areas of grass from year to year, sometimes repeating in the same area every year. This grass always replenishes itself sooner than the scientists say that it can.
This year the brown tide has killed an enormous amount of grass in the upper Laguna Madre, due to the lack of sunlight (photosynthesis). Hopefully as soon as the water clears, someone of the means can have satellite images taken of this area, so as to have a record of how fast the grass beds recover in the northern Mother Lagoon.
Education is the answer on this issue, not misinformation nor fences. TPW is stretched to the limit, and cannot enforce all the laws that are broken now, so new ones are not needed.
My thanks to Tyler for building this website and allowing everyone to speak out.
Salt Water
Ed S.

[FireLine]

Respect and ditto's fellas,

Pick a topic, any topic and there will most likely be to sides. I respect everyone's comments. Didn't join to make enemies, hope we all get to fish on day. I'm new to the board, so when I saw the sea grass issue I thought I would comment. Education would be a good thing about this topic I agree. Even though it's to late and the law has passed. There is good things about the law and bad one's as well.

Guy's I'm 26 years old. Hopefully I'll get to fish till I'm 80! The next 50 years or so will be interesting depending on the laws the TPW passes. Will wade fishing be banned one day because of the sea grass you destroy while stepping on it? Now Flats fishing for me at least will be difficult. Will have to make sure the trolling motor is fully charged, maybe have an extra battery on board as well. Will have to carefully evalute a drift pattern. If I drift though 50 yards of redfish and trout action, I will have to wait for the next channel to pick up move back to the fish or slowing troll a big circle back.

Fishing the flats has always been my favorite way to fish, especially with topwater! I guess now i will buy a kayak, it will make more since to have it on the boat so when I drift through the fish, I'll just anker out and kayak. The only problem with that is it leaves less room on the boat for your fishin buddies. So If someone wants to make a lot of money I recommend inventing kayak mounts that mount on the outside of a boat. Complaints normally come by those who are affected by the law. If you not complaining, your not affected.

I'm sure glad this message board is here. Flat's strategies might be a hot topic on the board after May 2006. I'm also glad that poppadunn introduced me to PINS. I will be fishing on the surf more next year. I hope that they will not close the beach down one day because of sea turtles.

take care guys, good luck fishing. Johnny, where do you fish, let's schedule a trip together for next year?

FireLine
_________________
FIRELINE WILL " GET ER DONE!!"

[Mike S]

Some good information about seagrasses
http://biology.usgs.gov/s+t/noframe/m4145.htm


Mike S

[Johnny French]

Citing other causes of seagrass decline (grazing, brown tide, dredging and maintenance of navigation channels) makes propwashing LESS excusable, not more. Those other disturbances, natural and man-made, make it harder for recovery of prop scars to occur, and therefore make them all the more to be avoided. A significant problem with such scars is that because they're narrow and tend to fill quickly with seaweed and dead seagrass, the grass on either side of the gashes has a hard time getting enough sunlight to re-establish itself down in the ruts. Adding to that problem is a complex chemical interaction between the decaying dead vegetation and the sediments below the stuff; the seagrass' below-bottom components have a tough time dealing with the build-up hydrogen sulfide and the drop in dissolved oxygen that occurs. Worms and shellfish that normally burrow in seagrass beds and provide food for reds and black drum are excluded, too.

We can't do anything about redhead ducks and fish rooting in the grass flats, we have no means yet to control brown tide, and years of work by scientists like Chris Onuf and me have gone into trying to minimize the effects of channel maintenance in the Laguna Madre, but any conscientious boater surely can do more to prevent propwashing. I'm sick of hearing excuses like "Where's the evidence?," "It'll take longer to drift to deep water," or "We'll no longer be able to wade on seagrasses if we stop people from chewing them up with props." That last is a particularly lame one, in my opinion. But, if you want to use this forum for excuses like that, go right ahead. Don't expect any compliments from me, though.

[Big John]

It is interesting to see how all the different things add up together to cause major shifts in the vegetation in the laguana. It has been such a secluded environment that the any changes to its makeup will have profound effects. I find it very interesting that manatee grass has spread so quickly.

As far as prop scarring is concerned, I don't seem to understand why we would not want to prevent it as much as we can. It is easily likened to teenagers putting ruts in yards, and parks with their cars by peeling out in the grass. The park we like to walk to was rutted really badly just about a month ago. There is still mud on the sidewalk and deep ruts in the grass that are bare. The ground there is no longer nice and level either, making it an ankle twister for kids to play on. A valuable resource has not been destroyed, but certainly damaged, and certainly the ability of the children to have a safe refuge they can enjoy has been altered. Anyone who has this done to their yard understands the damage that is done. It takes years to develop a strong healthy grass mat from roots to tip. When you do, its like walking on carpet, but it is also very fragile and can be easily damaged. Just drving on a very healthy yard will leave indentations, and you wouldn't let people do that.

The solution is an area that is ropped off with cable and poles to prevent the cars from driving in there in the first place. People can still walk in those parks, and children can play safely without fear of injury when running and not looking.

Similarly, the seagrass beds are not destroyed by prop damage, but that damage does take a long to time to repair itself. It also creates an area where larger fish have an easier time ambushing smaller fish, including game fish fry, because when the fish swim around without looking they don't see the ruts or the big fish hanging out in it.

If we "rope it off" then there is less threat of destruction.

I don't see why we stop people in cars from drving on and destroying the grass, but would not stop boats from causing similar damage.

If you do think so, let me drive my Durango on your yard. I won't even peel out. Then tell me how long it takes those ruts to go away by themselves.
_________________
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.

Teach a man to fish, he'll be broke and hungry the rest of his life!

John Sullivan
Native Corpus Christian
Currently Displaced in San Antonio

[Mike S]

Johnny...My post of the website was not intended to make any propwash issue less excusable but to educate. Everytime I have heard anything about seagrass conservation the main issue has been about propscars and the damage that they cause. Yes, they cause damage to the seagrass
that has been proven but as soon as everyone understands there is more than one issue that causes the decline of seagrass on the whole Texas coast the sooner some of the other causes might get addressed.
You say that the Redhead duck problem is one that there is nothing that can be done about. I must disagree. The best example of that would be what the Snow goose was doing to the northern tundra in Canada. The limits were increased along their flyway and I understand this has made a significant difference for the better. Maybe all of these things need to be addressed (including propscars).

Mike S

[FireLine]

Well what's done it done, more laws will follow.

" High taxes won't cause Americans to revolt but enviromentalism will" Touch not, taste not, can't go here, can't drill here, can't go there...
_________________
FIRELINE WILL " GET ER DONE!!"

[Big John]

No one said you can't go there in a boat, you'll just have to use a push-pole in the designated areas, or drift, instead of your engine.
_________________
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.

Teach a man to fish, he'll be broke and hungry the rest of his life!

John Sullivan
Native Corpus Christian
Currently Displaced in San Antonio

[Johnny French]

Mike S, I had no problem with your post of Dr. Onuf's work, for it helped make my case. Unfortunately, I used an absolute ("can't do anything") in describing how to difficult it would be to accomplish as an individual, compared to avoiding prop washing, to respond to redhead "eatouts" and fish rooting. Sure, we could hunt down the ducks and overharvest the fish, but the last time I looked we were trying to manage for more of each in the long term by limiting their consumption in the short term. Prop scars run counter to those management goals, wasting efforts like restocking redfish, and thwarting the other conservation efforts fishing and hunting associations put into helping the habitats.

Fireline, quit trying to put down people with legitimate scientific data and conservation goals. Someone who can't even spell environmentalism likely doesn't know the meaning of the word.